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ajlandry
Moderator
USA
1571 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2009 : 4:37:57 PM
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Spoke with my Yamaha dealer today. He told me he is going to a Yamaha Dealer Conference in mid November in Chattagoona to view and test the new 2010 Yamaha outboard engines. He tells me that Yamaha is PHASING OUT ALL 2 STROKE, BOTH HPDI AND CARB ENGINES FOR 2010! They will ONLY sell 4 stroke engines from 2010 on. I expressed concern about the weight issue and hole shot, particular for older boats that were designed "back heavy". He told me the new 4 stroke engines have BETTER hole shot than the HPDI ones in the same size engine and on the same boat, and are lighter than older 4 strokes and give better fuel mileage.
Check this site for a brief glimpse. They will give more info on this site on November 20th.
Link: http://www.yamahagamechanger.com/
Technology continues to improve........and, I'm sure the prices will also "improve" too.
"Pete" - Live every day like there's no tomorrow - go fishing! |
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Capt Rory Rorison
Advanced Member
USA
1947 Posts |
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wkdboatr
Average Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 08:43:24 AM
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| i think he was being sarcastic when he said "improve". meaning they will go up. |
Edited by - wkdboatr on 10/29/2009 08:43:59 AM |
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thesamarai
Average Member
136 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 09:03:15 AM
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| they know most of the boats are expensive toys and people who can afford them will pay whatever to get them |
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JD
Advanced Member
642 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 10:02:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ajlandry
Spoke with my Yamaha dealer today. He tells me that Yamaha is PHASING OUT ALL 2 STROKE, BOTH HPDI AND CARB ENGINES FOR 2010! They will ONLY sell 4 stroke engines from 2010 on. I expressed concern about the weight issue and hole shot, particular for older boats that were designed "back heavy". He told me the new 4 stroke engines have BETTER hole shot than the HPDI ones in the same size engine and on the same boat, and are lighter than older 4 strokes and give better fuel mileage.
Old news.
Yamaha is "suppose" to come out with all new 4 stroke engines.
All based off a new 400 hp V8
There will be a 300 hp V6 and a 200 hp V4.
We will have to wait and see. |
Edited by - JD on 10/29/2009 10:03:57 AM |
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Capt Ron
Average Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 2:09:08 PM
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| Ditto Capt Rory!! I, too, have been saying HPDI's are 'interim' technology. Looks like the interim period has closed sooner than most expected. Trying to make a 2 stroke something it is not: fuel efficient, environment friendly, quiet, smoke free, etc, was never going to be a final solution. Very glad to see the time is near! I am tired of choking on fumes at the launches in the morning!! |
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JD
Advanced Member
642 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 3:22:53 PM
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Ever tested an Etec.
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Capt Ron
Average Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 3:45:37 PM
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| Optimax and etec, the last "holdouts". Bombardier has been trying to unload Evinrude for awhile; it may have already occurred. I wonder why? Buyers remorse? |
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exiledcarper
Average Member
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 4:48:56 PM
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| Quite a few captains have tried the e-tec. Most of them have gone "bang", often more than once and with very low hours. |
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ed mcintyre
Administrator
USA
6079 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 12:07:33 AM
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there are two reasons why the push for four stroke engines, one is lower emissions, the other is that they will not run as long as a two stroke.
remember we did not inherit these resources from our parents, we are merely borrowing them from our children |
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tbonez
Average Member
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 07:18:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Capt Ron
Optimax and etec, the last "holdouts". Bombardier has been trying to unload Evinrude for awhile; it may have already occurred. I wonder why? Buyers remorse?
buyers remorse,ha.... don't hate the playa,hate the game. |
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KurtS
Junior Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 09:31:33 AM
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Buyer's remorse-I don't think so.
I havd had my E-tec for almost 3 years and COULDN'T be happier with it. I would take it over a 4 stroke any day. |
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Capt Ron
Average Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 12:26:47 PM
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| I meant Bombardier has 'buyer's remorse'. Why else would they want to sell the Evinrude line so soon after buying it? I did not mean the owners of the engines-although maybe a few buyers have remorse as well. Ed, everything I have read about 4 strokes indicates they will last much LONGER than a 2 stroke. 700-800 hours is a lot for a 2 stroke and 4 strokes are expected to last for thousands of hours-like a car engine. Show me a link that indicates otherwise. |
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ajlandry
Moderator
USA
1571 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 3:10:23 PM
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Capt Ron, have you seen actual data anywhere that compares life expectancy of 2 stroke direct injected engines compared to 4 stroke ones? I've searched and can't find any valid data on this question.
"Pete" - Live every day like there's no tomorrow - go fishing! |
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Blazer
Advanced Member
USA
2569 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 8:33:12 PM
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| Capt Ron... Although I've never one a 2-stroke long before upgrading, I've read many instances of them easily lasting 2000 hours. That being said, 4-strokes should last even longer. |
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ed mcintyre
Administrator
USA
6079 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 9:40:24 PM
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i see alot of 30 yearold 2 stroke 200 horse johnsons out there still running, and a lot of old mercs as well, now these are not oil injected or fuel injected motors, but they are still plugging away. 2,000 hours on an outboard engine is the equivalent of over 100,000 miles for a car, and cars don't have raw water cooling. it will be interesting to see if someone can build a 4 stroke engine as light as a two stroke and last as long. i just sold my old 20 merc to a friend and it was 1972 model. the main reason that i don't think that the new fourstroke engines will last as long as the 2 strokes is oil. people do not check the oil in the four strokes because it is so hard to do so, and i have already heard of 4 stroke engines making oil, because they got water in the oil from somewhere. the major reasons for 2 stroke engine failure was due either to vro failure or over revving of the engine. with the older model 2 strokes the major cause of failure was over revving. the way that i have observed most folks run the new 4 strokes, i don't think they will ever see 1,000 hours. they put them in the water, then take off at full throttle on a cold engine and they didn't check the oil before taking off! cold engine take offs and situations where the boat is not used for long periods of time will be the death of the 4 stoke engine, because the oil has totally drained out of the powerhead while the engine was setting up and then to crank it up and then take off at full throttle there is a lot of metal to metal contact that will eventually wear out the engine. it's just like having a car set up for a few months and then cranking it and running it. the rings will compress upon the piston and you will have alot of blow by.
remember we did not inherit these resources from our parents, we are merely borrowing them from our children |
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Capt Ron
Average Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 10:17:49 AM
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I think most(all?) of the old 2 strokes you see or hear about that have thousands of hours on them are on their second or third(fourth?) powerhead. Old 2 strokes on their original powerhead probably had very low hours on them for the first few years. Commercial fisherman, who put many more hours on engines than recreationals, usually have newer engines, although they are beat up and run hard. If you see an old engine on a commercial boat, you can bet it has a newer powerhead. Question: Why would Yamaha(a big successful company) be discontinuing a outboard engine line? Possible answers: 1. rapidly declining sales, 2. 4 stroke technology improvements, 3. less reliable hi-tech 2 stroke engines, 4. a desire to sell an engine that won't last as long(per Ed?), 5. can't get rid of them?
Yamaha succeeded in making a quieter, fuel efficient, less polluting two stroke engine that fewer and fewer people want to buy. That is probably the correct answer. |
Edited by - Capt Ron on 10/31/2009 10:20:41 AM |
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live to fish
Advanced Member
USA
793 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 7:59:40 PM
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Oh God here we go again. I'm popping some popcorn, anybody need some.
How many times do we have to go through this 4 vs 2 bull. Do you 4 stroke guys think that IF they phase out the 2 stroke that on that day they will all disappear from boats. Hell I still have an 8 track player. By what you like and quit bashing the other.
Pathfinder 2200 TE Fighting Lady Yellow 200 HPDI Vmax <")}}}}*>< |
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ed mcintyre
Administrator
USA
6079 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 8:34:59 PM
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ron, none of the old engines that i have seen have ever been rebuilt, the main reason for the change to 4 cycle engines is emissions, not new technology. the commercial rigs that i see all have 4 cycle engines, why fuel economy, same reason inboards diesel, fuel economy, not power, economy. a recreational fisherman would have to work only 2 days a week and fish 5 days a week to justify the extra cost of a 4 cycle engine. the only advantage of a 4 cycle engine that a recreational user would really see would be the reduction in noise! the diesel engine makers are also having to phase out their production of 2 stroke diesel engines, the reason emissions. now as to performance you cannot beat a 2 stroke!!
remember we did not inherit these resources from our parents, we are merely borrowing them from our children |
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ajlandry
Moderator
USA
1571 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 12:17:07 AM
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Geeeeeeeee I didn't know I was stirring such a hornets nest here!
Have to agree with Ed. The Feds and in particular, the EPA is what is driving this move to 4 stroke, plus the fact that the outboard engine manufacturers have finally found ways to solve some of the original problems with the 4 bangers, namely lack of torque and weight.
I believe that fuel cost and economy are of very small consequence to recreational fishermen who may use their boats 10-15 times per year.
"Pete" - Live every day like there's no tomorrow - go fishing! |
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KurtS
Junior Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 10:24:54 AM
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Good points Ed & aj- I agree.
It seems that 2 stroke and 4 stroke owners are loyal to their engines. It also seems that the 2 stokes are not going to automatically go away as some 4 strokers say. |
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Capt Rory Rorison
Advanced Member
USA
1947 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 10:57:58 AM
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Like I have said many times, 2 strokes are dinosaurs. Regardless of EPA crap what do you see around anymore that still runs two stroke? Face it, it is old technology and headed for extinction.
And all this BS about a lack of torque with four strokes is pure crap. Yea your two stroke winds up faster, but that is not torque. No two stroke will beat a four stroke in torque. Do you see any strokes used in racing applications any more? NO.
Capt. Rory Rorison
United Charters
Speckled trout and
Redfish fishing charters
Shell Beach, LA
504-439-1680
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live to fish
Advanced Member
USA
793 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 1:09:40 PM
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They're right fellas, let's take our 2 strokes off our boats. We can meet up somewhere and light them on fire. They suck. Anything else you 4 strokes boys don't like that we can destroy for yall?
Pathfinder 2200 TE Fighting Lady Yellow 200 HPDI Vmax <")}}}}*>< |
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Capt Rory Rorison
Advanced Member
USA
1947 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 2:33:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by live to fish
They're right fellas, let's take our 2 strokes off our boats. We can meet up somewhere and light them on fire. They suck. Anything else you 4 strokes boys don't like that we can destroy for yall?
Pathfinder 2200 TE Fighting Lady Yellow 200 HPDI Vmax <")}}}}*><
Don't take them off and throw them away. They will blow on their own soon enough. It would be nice to not have to get choked out by stroke smoke at the marina in the mornings, so on second thought burn them 2 smokes.
Count me out of the rest of this pissing match.
Capt. Rory Rorison
United Charters
Speckled trout and
Redfish fishing charters
Shell Beach, LA
504-439-1680
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ajlandry
Moderator
USA
1571 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 5:10:15 PM
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Captain Rory, my 150 HPDI Yamaha DOES NOT SMOKE, at all! It meets minimum EPA emissions. And, I'll put my 2 stroke HPDI against ANY 4 stroke, same size engine on the same boat and beat the hell out of it on hole shot, any day. You know that.
Until all boat manufacturers re-designed their hulls to accomodate the overweight and poor hole shot 4 strokes, you could NOT put a 4 stroke on an older boat unless you wanted to take 5 minutes or more to get it on a plane. I have a good fishing buddy who has a 19' Ranger, about 15 years old. Four years ago, he wanted to "repower". He contacted both Yamaha and Ranger, and BOTH told him NOT to put a 4 stroke on the boat as he would not be able to get it on a plane in a reasonable time.
"Pete" - Live every day like there's no tomorrow - go fishing! |
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Capt Ron
Average Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2009 : 08:49:33 AM
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| I think there are still good applications for two strokes. High speed bass boats are one. Never said the modern 2 strokes are bad. Just obsolete. They fancy them up with high pressure this, fuel injector that, Ficht this and that. But you still have an obsolete engine. Coal fired steam engines worked fine also-but diesels replaced them. No need to throw away your locomotive-just know that the coaling stations will be fewer and farther between and eventually non-existant. If I had an HPDI, which are very good engines, I would run it until it falls apart. Then I would go with the current 4 stroke technology for replacement. No need to panic and burn them right now! |
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Sportsman's Paradise Vol 09-37
New 2010 Yamaha Engines
