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 Creel limits for customers of guides
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Trout
Average Member

USA
170 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2004 :  12:05:36 AM  Show Profile
I think most guides would agree their customers would be happy with a 15 fish limit of trout and two redfish rather than the current limits for these species. This is becoming an important issue as the number of guides and therefore fishing customers increase having an impact on the trout and redfish fishery. I am not stating the impact is severe at this time nor am I wanting to limit the way someone makes a living. Most out of town guests would be happy with a "limit" so long as they could say the indeed "limited out with their Captain (guide)." Assuming you were a fisherman and would like to have continued access to what your tax dollars pay to study and maintain, our fishery, you might want to simply count the number of fish reportedly taken by guides on a day with good weather, including all of the LA coast. It's staggering despite fluctuations. What are your thoughts on a commercial guide limit that would reduce the number of trout and redfish taken by individuals who don't pay the full fees for fishing licenses, pay for or maintain their own boat, fuel, equipment, and baits which support the local markets for these products? What would the fishing be like for those of us who appopriately fish once-twice each week at most, if guided boats were not pounding the schools every day with increasing intensity? We pay to maintain our fishery just like some of use pay to deer hunt. Would you want to pay to hunt a piece of land that a commercial guide was also hunting, day-in-and-day-out? Why not? Some of the same problems apply. I am not a screaming conservationist but instead a life-long resident and proud recreational fisherman of our salt water bays and marshes. There have been an alarming number of comments by guides and others using the term "weekender" or "weekend warrior" in reference to most of us. Since when is this something to be ashamed of? If you don't think constant fishing pressure can affect fishing then why do you approach trout under the birds with stealth, or push-pole for redfish in the ponds? Guides have become abundant and with their increased numbers the competition intensifies creating an increae in pressure for them to produce. The result, multiple boats owned by one entity, fishing in nearly any conditions on any day. Most drastically is the obvious competition to catch and post the multiple limits of trout and reds on the "dock shot" for customers who in most cases couldn't clean their own fish or know how to cook them. For us who read these postings, catching specks and reds is about much more than limiting out and dock shots. We own this fishery as the citiczens of Louisiana and don't think for a second that you don't have the power to regulate the fishery and control our fish stocks that leave the coastal region and the state. For the record I truly believe the guide industry would not suffer but improve efficiency. Less pressure to produe lowered limits and therefore expectations, would mean less time on the water and lower fuel and bait expenditures. What do you think?

Trout

Rodney Hesson

lkennair
Senior Member

458 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2004 :  08:10:01 AM  Show Profile  Send lkennair a Yahoo! Message
Trout you'll probly get a good mix of opinion's on this.So here's mine True there are plenty oe guides but they don't limit out all the time.You don't here much about the bad days only the good ones.I would love lower limits( less fish to clean ).But you can't just target guides just because they put there time & knowledge of the water & fish to use.I know what you mean when you say weekend warrior,sport,etc. I was a commerical fishermen for the last 23yr's.I hated weekenders .I felt like they just trying to put us out of bussiness so they could have it all to there self.If a sport got in my way he'd better move or I'd scoop him up & shakem out.I find guides try to help most people I don't think you want them against you.We don't need the kinda feeling's between guides & weekenders to be like the feeling's between the sports & commerical fisherman. But thats just my opinion. CAPT.MIKE KENNAIR THE MISS BUD LIGHT

JUST LOOKING FOR SOME TAIL. CAPT.MIKEY

http://photos.yahoo.com/redfishkillers

Edited by - lkennair on 07/07/2004 08:12:22
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ed mcintyre
Administrator

USA
6938 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2004 :  6:51:32 PM  Show Profile
ike since i am alot older than you are and have fished the gulf alot longer than you have. i think that you are right. about not getting this crowd against that crowd. i have helped crabbers and they have helped me. now i do alot of stupid things like slowing down to no wake when approaching any vessel picking up traps or fishing even if they are near a channel in a seaworthy vessel. i started fishin the gulf in 1958. there was only one time i started not to tow someone in, and that was when my dad saw folks in a small boat waving and then moved over to them, he told me to rig a tow rig and then asked me to get him a beer. i reached in the ice box and came up empty. i told dad we are out of beer. he then told the folks that we had a friend of ours behind us and they would tow them in. the folks in the boat said capt. we have plenty of beer, and dad hollared back at me " throw them a line son". yes there are many many uneducated folks on the water today. shoot if the mississippi dept of wildlife etc. had just been watching the public launches at the ross barnett res. monday they could have paid for their annual budget just on enforcing the no wake zones around launches. courtesy on the water is the most important thing. as far as weekenders, i don't fish on the weekend. there are too many inexperiencened drunks out there. many years ago i mixed scotch with water, but not on the water. the only thing that i drink on the water is water and a couple of diet mountain dews. ed

IT'S JUST ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE, WHERE EVERY DAY IS A HOLIDAY, EVERY MEAL A BANQUET AND EVERY PAYCHECK A FORTUNE.
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melba
Senior Member

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2004 :  9:08:42 PM  Show Profile
Creed limits for guides?I THINK YOU JUST RANG A FEW BELLS! Most guides would wanna give you a big wet sloppy kiss! IMHO, It's a swinging door. With the prices of doing buisness going up,the creed limits are a guides "icing on the cake".The only probem being the consumer.The clients want to buy the fish as well as the expirience of the trip.And another good point is recreational "weekend warriors". What will happen to them.It's just not fair for one to catch a 25 limit of trout while a guide gets 15 or so.The paying customer is taking the hit.There is just no fair way to do it! I personally have never chartered a trip neither in or offshore fishin.But if I did I surely would have a lot more expectations and would like as much fish as I could take home for one days catch.I heard some prices people pay for offshore trips $$$. How could this really save them money?They burn enormous amounts of fuel and going 60-100 miles offshore they wanna catch as much as they can to satisfy customers.This would not help these guys at all IMHO.I think La's waters hold enuff fish as per where the limits are set now.Could you imagine taking home the limits of Florida,1 red and 5 trout?I think if ya lower limits now it would just suck!!!!WhenLADWLF says it's time we'll debate it with them. LOL!!


Smoke um if ya got um!

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Trout
Average Member

USA
170 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2004 :  12:06:45 AM  Show Profile
Thank you for responding in a rational and productive manner to my post. In reponse to what has been offered, I am not "targeting" guides because they posses any particular knowledge. Instead, I am drawing attention to the waste that occurs when non-fisherman and the guides who are under pressure to produce for them take more fish than what was needed for the trip to be successful. I have been offered fish of all sorts that were caught with guides because the individual was not interested in eating them. The issues brought out in my earlier post are the same things discussed among some guides themselves. Having been raised in a shrimping, crabbing, and yes gill netting community, I appreciate the desire to ignore this for the sake of not starting a conflict. Don't kid yourselves though, as the guide industry grows so will the animosity. Please understand, I am pro-guide and pro-commerc*****m. While seeing "our local guys" on ESPN is a thrill I also realize that state residents, particularly the coastal fishing person, have no stake or benefit in the publicity. The financial benefits are simply not there and are outweighed by what could soon be an over-commercialized fishery.
Did you like the fact that a very small number of guides on Big Lake were able to corral poltical support to make changes in the trout size number and limits without much debate or afterthought? Did you like how the guides involved in that profit but the local recreational guy lost what used to be his right to freely access his fishery? I don't recall something being enacted so quickly by the legislature and DWF except that Foster hunting land deal - same odor.

Regarding the consumer wanting more fish, perhaps. I think most people who charter a guided trip would not know the difference in the number of ziploc bags of filets. Thats not a slam but experience in selling seafood to tourists. Most "fishing tourists" like to catch quality fish that pull hard and when/if they reach there limit, they want to have a beer or two. It would also take hundreds of pounds of fish in one trip to come close to the value of the dollars spent. My wife has explained the math to me in detail! As recreational fisherman we have a greater authority and responsibility than to worry about how we might be perceived by guides. As for Florida, Louisiana ain't Florida! If our legislature tried that routine with us (ridiculous limits)it would not be long before politicians would be replaced and the bill killed. As guides and recreational fisherman, we can have our cake and eat it too. Keep the creel limits the same for LA tax and full license fee payers. Lower limits for guided fishing tourists and we may have better efficiency for everyone involved. When the Wildlife and Fisheries gets involved in this you'll know because you will be able to smell the political BS from Big Lake to the Rigolets. Thanks for the class in your reponses.

Lets Fish!

Rodney Hesson
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wanna
Advanced Member

USA
1118 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2004 :  12:50:23 AM  Show Profile
Gotta take issue with at least one of your positions...

True that the tourist from out of state pays a lower licensing fee for a guided trip. The lower licensing fee charged to tourist is intended to make it more attractive for tourist to come to La. and spend their hard earned dollars on motels, meals, guides etc... It helps promote an entire economy surrounding fishing. If I've heard right, Florida doesn't evencharge tourist for fishing on head boats. Federal funds are passed out to the states based on the number of licensed fishermen each state has so the state collects more than just the original fee that's paid by the tourist. Additionally, the guides pay a much larger fee than you and I.


Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking.
*h. jackson browne*
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n/a
deleted

1300 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2004 :  3:43:26 PM  Show Profile
Good topic.....it has been hashed and rehashed many times in different forums but never presented this way.

I think most captains would be glad to reduce the limits, especially of specks a lil bit. While it always sounds good to say "We slaughtered them!" or "We nailed 20 nice trouts", it always sound best to say "We hit a limit!" Lowering the limit would still allow their customers to make that brag while the guide can boast of another day of putting clients on a limit. Who would go with a captain that advertised "We caught a few" over "LIMITS 10 minutes after we launched the boat!"? It would actually work out better for the guides.

I trust our state biologists can handle monitoring the levels of fish. I don't think the constant pounding from guides puts more of a dent in the fish populations than the nets did...Guides will toss back undersize fish and, since most guides that I know are pretty smart dudes, they know that if all the fish are caught, they'll have a tougher time next trip.

Our specks are migratory, unlike bass in a pond, it is tough to overfish them one-by-one....the schools will continue to live and grow.

I don't like the idea of a split limit for guided and self-guided trips. It is like the broohaha out on Big Lake limiting the size on specks....too many regulations does not mean that the regs are good. Too tough to enforce.

Also, why would someone come to LA to fish when from the get-go when they'll get the impression that they'll be fleeced? Isn't our image crappy enough? I know if I am force to pay more or get less because I am a "tourist" I just won't go there.

Fishin' with MOJO

www.picturetrail.com/m*********c
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n/a
deleted

1534 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2004 :  6:57:56 PM  Show Profile
Thanks Marsh. I was wating till I had time to respond, but you nailed my points.

United we stand and United we fish
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n/a
deleted

1300 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2004 :  08:13:14 AM  Show Profile
WOOOHOOOO I did something right today!!!!

Fishin' with MOJO

www.picturetrail.com/m*********c
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Trout
Average Member

USA
170 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2004 :  2:25:49 PM  Show Profile
Thanks again for a refreshingly productive dialogue. Wanna; I agree with your statements about the license structure and fees. We could leave the fees the same but reduce the limit for guided customers. In terms of "fairness" (the concept does not exist)non-guided out-of-state recreational fisherman pay a significantly higher license fee. I would not change that either because it's our fishery and the "golden rule" applies, we have the gold so we make the rules." Marsh Maniac, the impact on the migratory trout is likely not significant now but lets face it, we are not really talking about numbers but quality and that sub-group of trout has been shown to be more finicky. Also, if we were to get the statistics regarding the growth of the guide industry we could predict a crowded fishery all vying for the 2-3 pound trout. Again, I want to be clear. I do not like regulations with little meaning and there are too many now. We are in a position as recreational fisherman AND guides to control the fishery like never before and keep more fish in our waters. About migrating trout, thats more of an accurate and important point in the Summer months when trout move over large expanses of water. BUT, watch when the Winter patterns set-in and we hear extremely consistent reports about how one guide after another "slaughtered the fish in the 1.5-3 lb. range, limiting -out, ten minutes from the dock" and how "happy the crew from Tupelo was to take home their limit of fine Louisiana trout." In all likelihood, that typical "crew" would not notice a 10 fish difference. In fact, and rightfully so, when guides reach their customer's limit, they describe how there clients "had a ton of fun catching and relasing more." I dare say that nearly all of the guides working the coastal areas take pride in giving thier clients quality and variety in targeted species and feel less than prideful when they produce "meat halls." Why would tourist from out-of-state and North LA come to fish even with reduced limits? (1) most wouldn't know the difference and (2) because our fishery and the guides who give them access to it, would still be the best deal possible in experiencing quality fishing. The guides would be smiling as would there families, the fishing tourist would be smiling all the way home as they brought home a quality catch to freezer burn, and the recreational fisherman and the guides would have more and better quality fish. Enfrocing the law would be no different than it is now becaue it is the guides responsibility to keep track of how many fish they have, again its in the guides best interest anyway.

One case in point, there are many more, are the guides that operate out of areas that don't typically produce numbers nor real quality. These guides do a great job, like most, of entertaining and providing different species, without limits. The guides that work the Rigolets and points accessed from there rarely produce limits for their customers but they post the excitement and pictures from their trips demonstrating the equivalent enthusiasm their clients experience. They also get repeat business from many of their customers. No limit, no "slaughter," just a great fishing experience = more fish for we united fisherman who live, die, rebuild, and love our land and water, even when we can't tell them apart! "Our" guides are obviously creative in terms of having clients pleased with less than spectacular catches. Such as the "Bay Snapper" (scientific name: usetobecalledsheapshead. I have fished the inner and outer salt waters of LA ferverently since 1975 both commercially and recreatioanally and I had never heard of the "Bay Snapper" until a creative and dogged guide we all love and know pulled that name out of the fish encyclopedia and made customers feel like "Kings" for haulin-in Sheepshead when quality fish were hard to find. Where was that "dock shot?" (Kidding) Thanks again for the non-defensive and classy posts, indeed united we fish!

Trout

Rodney Hesson
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Trout
Average Member

USA
170 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2004 :  2:44:17 PM  Show Profile
It's me again. I wanted to mention a core reason the vast majority of guided tourists would not have a problem with reduced limits, as well their guides. The point was made earlier that many (probably most) guided trips don't end with limits. A count of the average number of trout taken per guide report over the last two days is approximately 30-35 fish per boat, not person. Add in there approximately three to four reds per person. Not one report was described as a loss by either guide or customer and the pictures showed happy people with a suitable number of fish. I'm quite certain these guides would have liked to advertise catching limits giving them greater advertising power on the internet, repeat business, and word-of-mouth referrals. A lowered limit would have added VALUE to these guided trips for all involved.

Fish Hard - Trout

Rodney Hesson
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lkennair
Senior Member

458 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2004 :  3:57:22 PM  Show Profile  Send lkennair a Yahoo! Message
OH RODNEY you can't tell people that they can only catch 15 trout because there being chartered.But I can catch 25 because I live here & I know where to fish.You talk about license fee's but what about the 2,500 a guide spends for his CG license & the 250 for his guide license every year to be able to take this people fishing.If you change the limit then you change it for everybody!

JUST LOOKING FOR SOME TAIL. CAPT.MIKEY

http://photos.yahoo.com/redfishkillers
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n/a
deleted

1534 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2004 :  12:56:33 AM  Show Profile
Look, I do not want to piss off any commercial fisherman with this statement, but since it is the law that is the way it is. Do not worry about the increased number of guides on the water. Several of these guides were netters in a former life, and that is how they know where, what, and why fish are in certain places at certain times. Find me an ex-gillnetter and I will show you probably the best trout fisherman you will find. They have a feel for the fish that is uncanny. Now consider how many trout are brought to the dock by guides in a particular area in a day. This number is nothing compared to what a skilled gill-netter can bring in with one boat.

There are many regular people that fish only on weekends, or are blessed enough to have more time to fish that are just as good as most guides, and catch just as many if not more fish. The only difference between them and someone booking with a guide is that they own a boat or have access to one. Why should their limit be different? How many of you out there are paying a boat note, insurance, storage, and maintenance, and not using it but once a month if you are lucky? Just think of how many guided trips you could have taken and not had any of the headaches, not to mention when that trailer hub disintegrates in the middle of no where.


United we stand and United we fish
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n/a
deleted

17 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2004 :  02:27:38 AM  Show Profile
I think one point Trout has alluded to a few times in his posts but which hasn't been fully addressed is the potential, with our generous limits in Louisiana, for a large amount of wastage of fish, especially by "tourist fishermen" who come to fish with guides. Generally these people don't clean their own fish, but instead have the guide or deck hand do it for them. How many of these folks truly appreciate what they have if they can't even clean their own fish? How much fish will someone who doesn't fish alot and/or have fish as a major part of their normal diet realistically eat? How many family/friends that they might give fish to have no idea how to cook the fish and ruin it or waste it? How much of this fish goes bad from improper storage or is still sitting in the freezer from a trip two years ago? And the problem isn't limited to only "tourist" fishermen. just from other fisherman I have come in contact and informally spoken with I know fish is wasted. How many fishermen are going fishing in the next few days yet have fish in the freezer at home enough to feed a family? I often come across guys who fish but don't/can't eat fish or don't prefer fish yet they keep everything they catch. Just one example and I have seen it many times is the once or twice a year fisherman who goes out to Grand Isle and fishes the bridge in Caminada pass or with a friend in his boat or with a guide. He gets lucky one day and manages to catch and land a 37"+ Bull red or a 30"+ black drum. He/she is so excited they don't even think of throwing the fish back yet when and if ( a big if indeed) they actually clean the fish they find worms or realize the meat is basically inedible. what then?

Bottom line for most of us on this board; there is really no need to freeze fish if you have even a small clue about where and when to catch fish and have an opportunity to fish once or twice every week or two. Once a month or more fisherman I can understand wanting to freeze a small portion of the catch. What to do about this dilemma I'm not sure. lowering limits on guided trips would IMHO, be a step in the right direction. What I am sure of is that there are always an abundance of fish to be had in Southern Louisiana, it would be a shame if this was not always to be the case for any reason.

Edited by - FishEyePi on 07/10/2004 02:52:00
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n/a
deleted

16 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2004 :  2:23:09 PM  Show Profile
These are all very good points.
Here are my comments (for what its worth)
1. Under not circumstances can you have one limit for one group of people and one limit for another. Whats fair is fair and it should be same for everybody. The only real sticking point is the guides limit. I do beleive that the guide should not be allowed to catch a limit and give it to his / her customers. I think only the paying customer should be allowed to keep the limit. Yes the guide can and should certainly catch fish, but what he catches goes to the total amount kept. Three guys can catch 75 trout, not 100 just because the guide caught a limit too. Honestly, do you think the guide wants the fish, hell no, plus he dont have to clean them.
2 The limit is fine the way it is. Bioligist (who are smarter than every person who usually post on this page) study and measure the numbers of fish on a periodic basis. They know more than anybody, what the water capacity for producing fish are. Barring some large fish kill or Trop. Storm. the limit is fine the way it is. The point was made in an earlier, gill nets took far greater quanities of fish than any possible number taken by any number of guides.
3. If you really wanted to improve the quality of the LA fishery you should questions the size limit not the number limit. I would support a 13 or 14 inch size limit as opposed to 12". Maybe even a slot limit. I know, I know the smaller the fish the better it taste. But you guys are right, nobody from MS, TX, AL or FL knows how to cook'em anyway. Most of the time (unless the guide is cleaning them) the 12 inch fish get distroyed in the cleaning process. Especially if youv'e had a few beers. Thats another topic though.
4. The number speak for themselves. Everybody will tell you that the number / quanity of fish being caught each is only getting better. This wouldn't be so, if the LDWF didn't know what they were doing.
Thanks for listening.
Whats truly most important is that all of us can chat so passionatly about a sport and state that we all love. And at the same time still appreciate each others opinion.

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lkennair
Senior Member

458 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2004 :  2:53:39 PM  Show Profile  Send lkennair a Yahoo! Message
AU I like your #1 point!I'd sure go for that one & bet most guide's would to.

JUST LOOKING FOR SOME TAIL. CAPT.MIKEY

http://photos.yahoo.com/redfishkillers
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robertlewis
Average Member

USA
167 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2004 :  4:53:15 PM  Show Profile
I dont see why a guide can't just take few minutes of time and talk to his clients and ask them a few questions like,are you interested in taking a limit home to cook or you interested in having a good day on the water and catch an realese alot but keep a good mess to take home? Some Guides may think that everyone is interested in keeping a limit without asking the clients. Some clients are just interested in getting away from home and work and spending a day on the water fishing and don't care about keeping a lot of fish, just want to catch some. Keeping the limits the same and spending time asking a few questions could help. AU i'm from Ms and i do know how to cook fish, I can catch a few fish in Ms but i do like fishing La waters. Im not always interested in trying to catch a limit just want to spend a day on the water and bring home a mess for a couple of meals.
I consider a sucessful day of fishing is when i can come home, clean the boat up, put it under the shed and nothing has tore up on it and i am happy if i have a few fish.


fisheyefool
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ed mcintyre
Administrator

USA
6938 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2004 :  8:15:50 PM  Show Profile
heck some days out of cocodrie i'm just proud and happy to make it to the dock. ed

DON'T WORRY BOUT' DE MULE BOY, JUST LOAD DE WAGON!!!!!!!
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